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	<title>Comments for ASA PSCF Discussion</title>
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		<title>Comment on Adam and Eve as Historical People, and Why It Matters by Norman Brockmeier</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/08/20/adam-and-eve-as-historical-people-and-why-it-matters/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman Brockmeier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description> This is one of the best PSCF Articles during the last year.  I&#039;d love to read the unabridged version presented in Waco, TX in 2009.
   I was very intrigued by John Collins&#039; bio -- he also received degrees from MIT, as well as from seminary in St. Louis and Liverpool.  (I have a PhD from MIT and grew up in St. Louis.)  I thoroughly agree with him that it matters very much whether Adam and Eve were real people.  I have been a Lutheran all my life and his article fits with the theology behind my Faith.  His discussion of Towner&#039;s comments about Irenaeus were a fitting example of the manner in which Towner distorts what Irenaeus says, to support what Towner believes. 
  Collins detailed many different concepts that &quot;our faith story&quot; depends on and how we Christians have inherited an important foundation to our story from the Patriarch&#039;s story in the Hebrew Pentateuch.  His exposition of this story is clearly stated and essential to the understanding of our faith journey.     Peace,  Norm Brockmeier</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> This is one of the best PSCF Articles during the last year.  I&#8217;d love to read the unabridged version presented in Waco, TX in 2009.<br />
   I was very intrigued by John Collins&#8217; bio &#8211; he also received degrees from MIT, as well as from seminary in St. Louis and Liverpool.  (I have a PhD from MIT and grew up in St. Louis.)  I thoroughly agree with him that it matters very much whether Adam and Eve were real people.  I have been a Lutheran all my life and his article fits with the theology behind my Faith.  His discussion of Towner&#8217;s comments about Irenaeus were a fitting example of the manner in which Towner distorts what Irenaeus says, to support what Towner believes. <br />
  Collins detailed many different concepts that &#8220;our faith story&#8221; depends on and how we Christians have inherited an important foundation to our story from the Patriarch&#8217;s story in the Hebrew Pentateuch.  His exposition of this story is clearly stated and essential to the understanding of our faith journey.     Peace,  Norm Brockmeier</p>
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		<title>Comment on Peering into People’s Brains: Neuroscience’s Intrusion into Our Inner Sanctum by Wayne Dawson</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/05/19/peering-into-people%e2%80%99s-brains-neuroscience%e2%80%99s-intrusion-into-our-inner-sanctum/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne Dawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 00:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/?p=105#comment-34</guid>
		<description>This is the first PSCF that I have actually read from cover to cover.  Typically, I can only make time for one article at best.  However, just as this article and the preface by the editor of this production somewhat emphatically pointed out, this is an area that hits at the heart of the Christian faith.  Just to name a few issues that crop up, the study of the mind hits on matters of free will, issues about what we can know about God with a physical mind, questions about what is the soul, and a host of other important theological topics.  So I appreciate that someone saw it fit to begin to address the matter and the efforts made by all the writers in this production to speak to the Christian community should be welcomed.  
 
Here, Jones appears to accept that the brain is largely a physical entity.  I did find the article well nuanced on the issue of how we can reasonable interpret religious experience when we are confronted with reports from functional NMR, the purported “God helmet”, and chemically induced effects.  It was certainly encouraging to hear writing free of ideological overtones that the brain is little more than a glorified piece of meat.  We may yet find some “salt” to spice it up a bit.  I felt Jones sensitively approached the matters of religious experience and what we can know from science.
 
I only wish to add a small comment.  I understand that a dualist view is difficult to maintain.  As other authors in this production point out, a person’s personality can chance as a result of Alzheimer’s disease, other neurodegenerative diseases, and head injuries.  We do see the lights go out in the cold realities of the world.  We also see that we can probe brain states.  So we have little way get around the fact that the mind is largely physical, and in this respect, basically meat. Hence, as far as writing as a scientist, at least with the evidence that appears to be available to us, we are only left to find ways to nuance the perspective on what constitutes the mind and the soul.  
 
However, as believers in a transcendent God who is greater than all the “stuff” that we claim to constitute the universe (or multiverse be it so) and a God who expects us to be moral; I only wish to point out that we have to accept that there is something more to the mind than its collective pieces.  I don’t argue this scientifically, it is clearly an issue of faith.  Hence, I am not being critical of this article, or the other articles in this work, but theologically speaking (a matter that was not so much addressed in this work), this is baggage we have to carry with us, at least in our private thoughts.  I’m not really sure where the “salt” comes from.  I’m inclined to speculate that the non-locality of quantum mechanics might play a role.  Again, that cannot be measured since we do not know any details on the nature of the transmitter let alone the effects this could have on the receiver.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but I only propose that without accepting some nuanced form of dualism, we would lose our feeble grip on the transcendent God.
 
By Grace we proceed,
Wayne</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the first PSCF that I have actually read from cover to cover.  Typically, I can only make time for one article at best.  However, just as this article and the preface by the editor of this production somewhat emphatically pointed out, this is an area that hits at the heart of the Christian faith.  Just to name a few issues that crop up, the study of the mind hits on matters of free will, issues about what we can know about God with a physical mind, questions about what is the soul, and a host of other important theological topics.  So I appreciate that someone saw it fit to begin to address the matter and the efforts made by all the writers in this production to speak to the Christian community should be welcomed.  <br />
 <br />
Here, Jones appears to accept that the brain is largely a physical entity.  I did find the article well nuanced on the issue of how we can reasonable interpret religious experience when we are confronted with reports from functional NMR, the purported “God helmet”, and chemically induced effects.  It was certainly encouraging to hear writing free of ideological overtones that the brain is little more than a glorified piece of meat.  We may yet find some “salt” to spice it up a bit.  I felt Jones sensitively approached the matters of religious experience and what we can know from science.<br />
 <br />
I only wish to add a small comment.  I understand that a dualist view is difficult to maintain.  As other authors in this production point out, a person’s personality can chance as a result of Alzheimer’s disease, other neurodegenerative diseases, and head injuries.  We do see the lights go out in the cold realities of the world.  We also see that we can probe brain states.  So we have little way get around the fact that the mind is largely physical, and in this respect, basically meat. Hence, as far as writing as a scientist, at least with the evidence that appears to be available to us, we are only left to find ways to nuance the perspective on what constitutes the mind and the soul. <br />
 <br />
However, as believers in a transcendent God who is greater than all the “stuff” that we claim to constitute the universe (or multiverse be it so) and a God who expects us to be moral; I only wish to point out that we have to accept that there is something more to the mind than its collective pieces.  I don’t argue this scientifically, it is clearly an issue of faith.  Hence, I am not being critical of this article, or the other articles in this work, but theologically speaking (a matter that was not so much addressed in this work), this is baggage we have to carry with us, at least in our private thoughts.  I’m not really sure where the “salt” comes from.  I’m inclined to speculate that the non-locality of quantum mechanics might play a role.  Again, that cannot be measured since we do not know any details on the nature of the transmitter let alone the effects this could have on the receiver.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but I only propose that without accepting some nuanced form of dualism, we would lose our feeble grip on the transcendent God.<br />
 <br />
By Grace we proceed,<br />
Wayne</p>
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		<title>Comment on Biology of Spirituality by University of Alabama News » UA Awarded $1.5 Million from Howard &#8230; &#124; Biological Engineering Addict</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/05/19/biology-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>University of Alabama News » UA Awarded $1.5 Million from Howard &#8230; &#124; Biological Engineering Addict</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 16:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Biology of Spirituality &#124; ASA PSCF Discussion [...]</description>
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		<title>Comment on Understanding Medical Relationships through a Covenantal Ethical Perspective by ged study packet in texas &#124; Educational Texas</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/04/13/understanding-medical-relationships-through-a-covenantal-ethical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>ged study packet in texas &#124; Educational Texas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 00:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Understanding Medical Relationships through a Covenantal Ethical &#8230; [...]</description>
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		<title>Comment on What General Revelation Does (and Does Not) Tell Us by Randall Isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/04/13/what-general-revelation-does-and-does-not-tell-us/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Randall Isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 20:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/?p=63#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Thank you for an excellent article, Mary. It is an important clarification of the two-book metaphor.

You trace the history of this metaphor largely to Calvin. I wondered if you might comment on the prior history of this metaphor, particularly with respect to the article by &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2005/PSCF9-05Tanzella-Nitti.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tanzella-Nitti&lt;/a&gt;? Was the Bible seen as a revelation of God  but not of nature prior to Calvin as well?

Randy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for an excellent article, Mary. It is an important clarification of the two-book metaphor.</p>
<p>You trace the history of this metaphor largely to Calvin. I wondered if you might comment on the prior history of this metaphor, particularly with respect to the article by <a href="http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2005/PSCF9-05Tanzella-Nitti.pdf" rel="nofollow">Tanzella-Nitti</a>? Was the Bible seen as a revelation of God  but not of nature prior to Calvin as well?</p>
<p>Randy</p>
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		<title>Comment on Prophet of Science: Arthur Holly Compton, June &#8211; Dec 2009; Contemporary by Ted Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/01/20/prophet-of-science-arthur-holly-compton-june-dec-2009-contemporary/comment-page-1/#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/?p=31#comment-12</guid>
		<description>Jack,

Compton was heavily involved all the way along.  He was actually Fermi&#039;s boss in Chicago, and Compton was the one who appointed Oppenheimer to lead the big team that designed the bomb.  For details about Compton&#039;s activities with the bomb project, see his book, &quot;Atomic Quest.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack,</p>
<p>Compton was heavily involved all the way along.  He was actually Fermi&#8217;s boss in Chicago, and Compton was the one who appointed Oppenheimer to lead the big team that designed the bomb.  For details about Compton&#8217;s activities with the bomb project, see his book, &#8220;Atomic Quest.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Prophet of Science: Arthur Holly Compton, June &#8211; Dec 2009; Contemporary by Jack Irvine</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/01/20/prophet-of-science-arthur-holly-compton-june-dec-2009-contemporary/comment-page-1/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Irvine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/?p=31#comment-11</guid>
		<description>To what degree was Compton involved in the beginning of the Manhatten Engineering District (Manhatten Project)? Or was he primarily in the &quot;after-the-war&quot; spin off AEC only?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To what degree was Compton involved in the beginning of the Manhatten Engineering District (Manhatten Project)? Or was he primarily in the &#8220;after-the-war&#8221; spin off AEC only?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Prophet of Science: Arthur Holly Compton, June &#8211; Dec 2009;Motivation by Ted Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/01/20/prophet-of-science-arthur-holly-compton-june-dec-2009motivation/comment-page-1/#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:56:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/?p=24#comment-10</guid>
		<description>Randy,

Yes, I did find a few criticisms of Compton&#039;s religiosity by his peers; I quoted a couple of them on the final page of the essay (Dec issue, page 251).  By and large, however, his peers deeply respected him, sometimes b/c of his faith but more often in spite of it.  The one common criticism involves an incident during the Manhattan Project.  Compton told about this on pp. 109-110 of his book, &quot;Atomic Quest.&quot;  At a critical point during the organization of the project, when it was being decided whether it was a military, scientific, or industrial project (it was really all 3), Compton spoke to a large group of &quot;research and administrative heads.&quot;  He &quot;reminded them of the story of Gideon, as he selected from a much larger band the three hundred who were most eaget to press the attack against the Amalekites.  I had to make the decision according to my best judgment.  This would be to enter into as favorable an agreement as we could with some competent engineering or industrial concern.  Those who wished to remain on the project with such associates would be most welcome.&quot;

Several scientists remembered this meeting and did not appreciate the way in which Compton handled it.  It isn&#039;t clear to me, however, whether their negative memories owe more to the seemingly arbitrary fashion in which Compton announced his decision, or to his use of the Bible in doing so.

As for evolution, Compton&#039;s views were typical for liberal Christians of his generation, including distinguished biologists such as Henry Fairfield Osborn.  The whole shebbang of evolution from molecules to man made no sense unless it was guided by God--though without miracles. Compton himself used the term &quot;intelligent design&quot; in 1940 (see Sept issue, p. 180), and in some ways his views would fit in with those of ID advocates today.  In other ways, however, they would not--esp his disbelief in miracles (including the bodily Resurrection) and his full acceptance of human evolution.  (I realize that ID is officially silent on both of these points, but nearly all ID advocates probably affirm miracles and deny human evolution; they also probably think that ID provides some support for both of those positions.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randy,</p>
<p>Yes, I did find a few criticisms of Compton&#8217;s religiosity by his peers; I quoted a couple of them on the final page of the essay (Dec issue, page 251).  By and large, however, his peers deeply respected him, sometimes b/c of his faith but more often in spite of it.  The one common criticism involves an incident during the Manhattan Project.  Compton told about this on pp. 109-110 of his book, &#8220;Atomic Quest.&#8221;  At a critical point during the organization of the project, when it was being decided whether it was a military, scientific, or industrial project (it was really all 3), Compton spoke to a large group of &#8220;research and administrative heads.&#8221;  He &#8220;reminded them of the story of Gideon, as he selected from a much larger band the three hundred who were most eaget to press the attack against the Amalekites.  I had to make the decision according to my best judgment.  This would be to enter into as favorable an agreement as we could with some competent engineering or industrial concern.  Those who wished to remain on the project with such associates would be most welcome.&#8221;</p>
<p>Several scientists remembered this meeting and did not appreciate the way in which Compton handled it.  It isn&#8217;t clear to me, however, whether their negative memories owe more to the seemingly arbitrary fashion in which Compton announced his decision, or to his use of the Bible in doing so.</p>
<p>As for evolution, Compton&#8217;s views were typical for liberal Christians of his generation, including distinguished biologists such as Henry Fairfield Osborn.  The whole shebbang of evolution from molecules to man made no sense unless it was guided by God&#8211;though without miracles. Compton himself used the term &#8220;intelligent design&#8221; in 1940 (see Sept issue, p. 180), and in some ways his views would fit in with those of ID advocates today.  In other ways, however, they would not&#8211;esp his disbelief in miracles (including the bodily Resurrection) and his full acceptance of human evolution.  (I realize that ID is officially silent on both of these points, but nearly all ID advocates probably affirm miracles and deny human evolution; they also probably think that ID provides some support for both of those positions.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Prophet of Science: Arthur Holly Compton, June &#8211; Dec 2009; Peers by Ted Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/01/20/prophet-of-science-arthur-holly-compton-june-dec-2009-peers/comment-page-1/#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/?p=27#comment-9</guid>
		<description>Randy,

This is a very good question.  First, the state of affairs you refer to was not narrowly confined to physics, but (as far as I can tell) involved scientists in all fields.  Among those Christian scientists who wrote about science and religion at that time, there were hardly any traditional Christians--hardly any who could have said the Nicene Creed without crossing their fingers.  

Was this just an absence of visibility?  Perhaps so; perhaps there were a large number of Christian scientists with traditional beliefs, and they just didn&#039;t write about this so we can&#039;t see them easily when we look back today.  This is possible, but unlikely.  We know (for example) that around 1930 nearly all of the &quot;eminent&quot; scientists who were religious (a fairly large subset of the &quot;eminent&quot; scientists at the time) were either Unitarians (and thus by definition not traditional Christians) or else members of &quot;liberal&quot; denominations (the survey I am thinking of used that term).  Virtually none were Baptist or Catholic, for example.  I know of only two &quot;fundamentalists&quot; who were eminent scientifically, and one of them was a actually physician not a laboratory scientist.

This is not true today, not at all.  Why was it true then?

Perhaps b/c the intensity of the &quot;fundamentalist-modernist&quot; controversy drove many people, even very thoughtful people, out of the middle.  There are more options today, religiously, and thus more places where scientists and other Christians can find comfortable places in which to dwell.

There were scads of scientists in the 19th century who were traditional Christians, including the top geologist in America (James Dwight Dana) and the greatest American scientist around the Civil War (oceanographer Matthew Maury).  The pendulum has indeed swung back, though only part-way.  What accounts for this great shift?  Many factors, IMO, including evolution as one of those many factors.  (It&#039;s a mistake IMO either to reduce this to evolution or to ignore evolution entirely.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randy,</p>
<p>This is a very good question.  First, the state of affairs you refer to was not narrowly confined to physics, but (as far as I can tell) involved scientists in all fields.  Among those Christian scientists who wrote about science and religion at that time, there were hardly any traditional Christians&#8211;hardly any who could have said the Nicene Creed without crossing their fingers.  </p>
<p>Was this just an absence of visibility?  Perhaps so; perhaps there were a large number of Christian scientists with traditional beliefs, and they just didn&#8217;t write about this so we can&#8217;t see them easily when we look back today.  This is possible, but unlikely.  We know (for example) that around 1930 nearly all of the &#8220;eminent&#8221; scientists who were religious (a fairly large subset of the &#8220;eminent&#8221; scientists at the time) were either Unitarians (and thus by definition not traditional Christians) or else members of &#8220;liberal&#8221; denominations (the survey I am thinking of used that term).  Virtually none were Baptist or Catholic, for example.  I know of only two &#8220;fundamentalists&#8221; who were eminent scientifically, and one of them was a actually physician not a laboratory scientist.</p>
<p>This is not true today, not at all.  Why was it true then?</p>
<p>Perhaps b/c the intensity of the &#8220;fundamentalist-modernist&#8221; controversy drove many people, even very thoughtful people, out of the middle.  There are more options today, religiously, and thus more places where scientists and other Christians can find comfortable places in which to dwell.</p>
<p>There were scads of scientists in the 19th century who were traditional Christians, including the top geologist in America (James Dwight Dana) and the greatest American scientist around the Civil War (oceanographer Matthew Maury).  The pendulum has indeed swung back, though only part-way.  What accounts for this great shift?  Many factors, IMO, including evolution as one of those many factors.  (It&#8217;s a mistake IMO either to reduce this to evolution or to ignore evolution entirely.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Prophet of Science: Arthur Holly Compton, June &#8211; Dec 2009;Motivation by Randy Isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/2010/01/20/prophet-of-science-arthur-holly-compton-june-dec-2009motivation/comment-page-1/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 22:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asa3online.org/PSCF/?p=24#comment-8</guid>
		<description>Ted, you said &quot; second, he was not only very religious, but he wrote extensively about science and Christian faith for many years, for a wide popular audience.&quot; Clearly Compton didn&#039;t hide his faith. In your research, did you come across any criticism of Compton by his peers for his faith? Was there any backlash? If not, why not? Because liberal theology attracts less criticism than conservative? Or that he wasn&#039;t dealing with evolution? Or did he dodge the controversial areas?

Randy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted, you said &#8221; second, he was not only very religious, but he wrote extensively about science and Christian faith for many years, for a wide popular audience.&#8221; Clearly Compton didn&#8217;t hide his faith. In your research, did you come across any criticism of Compton by his peers for his faith? Was there any backlash? If not, why not? Because liberal theology attracts less criticism than conservative? Or that he wasn&#8217;t dealing with evolution? Or did he dodge the controversial areas?</p>
<p>Randy</p>
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